The Age Guide: Perspectives on the Aging Journey

Aging Unfiltered: Real Talk on Aging & Work - with Elizabeth White

• Age Guide • Season 4 • Episode 7

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Welcome to another episode of Aging Unfiltered. In this episode, we dive into an important topic: employment after age 55, and the unique challenges older adults face in the job market. It was a privilege to welcome Elizabeth White to the podcast to discuss this pressing issue. Elizabeth is a leading voice in the movement for economic justice and a champion for older adults navigating the complexities of work and retirement. She’s the author of 55, Underemployed, and Faking Normal and is dedicated to raising awareness around the financial struggles faced by people over 55. In this eye-opening conversation, Elizabeth shares her personal insights, research, and stories of working tirelessly to overcome ageism as a barrier to employment. Tune in for an empowering discussion about an often-overlooked aspect of aging advocacy.

Resources

55, Underemployed, and Faking Normal: Your Guide to a Better Life: White, Elizabeth

Elizabeth White: An honest look at the personal finance crisis | TED Talk
NuuAge Coliving
Elizabeth White

Take Action Today – AgeGuide

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Unknown:

...

Gretchen:

Welcome to the Age Guide Perspectives on the Aging Journey. I'm your host, Gretchen Knowlton, and this is Aging Unfiltered, a series where we get real about ageism, how it shapes our world, and what we can do about it. Our guest today, Elizabeth White, is an entrepreneur, author, and advocate for those 55 and older facing uncertain career futures and financial insecurity. When she couldn't find a book that addressed her needs during her own bout of long-term unemployment, Elizabeth wrote one herself. She is the author of 55 Underemployed and Faking Normal. and founder of New Age, a co-living housing solution for older Americans navigating later life without traditional family support structures. Elizabeth has been named one of the top 50 influencers on aging in the country. Her essays and work have appeared in national publications like Barron's, Forbes, The Huffington Post, and The Washington Post. Her candid reflections on the personal financial crisis And challenges of aging in America have resonated deeply with audiences, culminating in a widely acclaimed TEDx talk called An Honest Look at the Personal Finance Crisis, which has accumulated over 2 million views. Elizabeth, we're so happy to have you join us today. Welcome.

Elizabeth:

No, thank you. And I am delighted to be here.

Gretchen:

So glad to have you. So let's start out with a little bit of your personal experience and some insights. Can you share your personal journey that led you to become an advocate for addressing ageism and underemployment for people over 60?

Elizabeth:

So I was someone who was doing really well for a long time. I have a lot of the props and credentials. I have a Harvard MBA. I have a master's in international studies from John Hopkins. I had worked for the World Bank for a number of years. Everything was going well. And during the 2008, 2009 recession, I had two big consultancies that I'd had for a long time. I was making really good money. And when the economy slows down, companies retrench and often consultants would be the first to go. Wasn't worried because of my background and I had not had trouble finding work before, but this time was different in my mid fifties this time. And, you know, doing all the stuff, the networking, the coffees, you know, little informational interviews and nothing was really clicking. And as I talked to a close group of women friends, one was a Emmy award-winning producer, nothing happening with her, another friend who had had a very senior position in the government, nothing happening with her. And at a point of just, I was low, I was kind of, you know, you're just feeling despair because now, you're thinking you're going to be unemployed for a short time and weeks are now turning into months. And I was sitting on my grandson's bed and I just wrote in one go this essay describing what it's like to land here when you thought you would never be here. When you use banned deodorant, crest toothpaste, don't jaywalk, pay your taxes, do all the stuff. And here you are and you don't know if you are now a visitor over here that you will eventually get back or are you now a resident over here will never recover and. That essay went viral. I sent it over kind of out of the blue to Next Avenue, to Richard Eisenberg.

Gretchen:

Oh, good for you.

Elizabeth:

And he published it. It was the first thing I had ever published. And he reached out to me. He said, are you seeing what's happening with this online? Because it had also gotten posted onto the PBS Facebook page and thousands and thousands of people responded. Somehow, and I don't know how, they get your email address. So in the comments section, they do two or three sentences. In the email to you, they do a page and a half single space. This is what happened to me. And there was a lot of me too. My brother, my sister, myself. And I have the background. I can look at data. I looked at the data and I realized then that this was not just my small circle of friends. This was hundreds of thousands, millions of people had landed here. A

Gretchen:

pervasive

Elizabeth:

issue. And then what would happen is someone would say, I'm going to be in D.C. You want to have a coffee? And it might've been someone who made a comment or found my email and we had corresponded. And then at some point, Gretchen, I had stories where I could write a book that was not for, it wasn't a Brookings Institute tome. It wasn't written for legislators. What I couldn't find was a book that if you landed here, you personally, what was the play? Not for the policy makers, but you're here, never expected to be here, traumatized, ashamed, embarrassed, all the stuff, who's speaking to you? So that was the book that I wanted to write that wove in my story, but wove in the story of many other people. And then the men I asked, because the men it was, in an odd way harder. For men, and I'm going to say for white men, because ageism sometimes is their first ism. People grow up experiencing being a woman. I've grown up being a Black woman. I found for white men, some in the book having become very, very good friends of mine, they had never walked into a room and been discounted on site because they're presenting as an older person. That was new to them.

Gretchen:

Yes.

Elizabeth:

And so I really wanted to capture their voices in their own voice. So they would write and then I would edit for length. So then 55 underemployed, I first did it, self-published it, and then later Simon and Schuster said, we can get a better distribution for you on this. Then I added some chapters, updated the data, and it went out again, sort of 2019, 2020.

Gretchen:

So it was really almost like a how-to manual, a guide, if you will, for people

Elizabeth:

a guide and I wanted to take away the shame. I wanted to explain how this happened to responsible people. How this wasn't just you are some you know, out here taking risks and behaving badly, that there were things that contributed to so many people landing here. And one of them really just being the longevity, you know, we're talking about ageism, you know, when we think about, I was just writing an essay on social security. So when you think about life expectancy at birth in 1935, when social security was announced, it was something like 62. So back before all of the advances in science and medicine that have extended life expectancy, you might not be in retirement very long. A few years, as I say, kiss your grandbabies, do a little fishing, and then you're dead. Now you could be 60 in reasonably good health and live 25 years. That length of time you need to fund now is so much more you were looking at you know five seven years sometimes three to five years right funding 20 years without working is a very different um uh story and just lots of people have not set aside a million million and a half dollars to do that

Gretchen:

most middle class and lower class americans simply can't you're right so what do we do yeah we need to work longer

Elizabeth:

Yes.

Gretchen:

Right.

Elizabeth:

We can be, if we're allowed and we're

Gretchen:

not allowed, but we can't always do that. Yes. Yes. So you recognized right away that there was some ageism going on, that there was something different in this job search you had, that something else was at play. You recognized the ageism and you called it out, which is so wonderful. You identified it and then you helped others through it. But when you spoke out publicly about this challenge and about ageism, did you face any backlash or resistance? Did people say, oh, no, no, you're exaggerating that? Or where are you coming from with this new ism?

Elizabeth:

So I would say I didn't realize it right away. You're sort of wondering what's happening. I've got these kinds of credentials. It was after the essay. And I focused more on financial vulnerability of older adults. Where that then leads you is into this fabulous research that ProPublica and Urban Institute did, where they looked at and found out that half of Americans in their 50s lose their jobs. Half. A little more than half. And that of that number, only 10% ever again get a job that's commensurate in status and income of the job they were pushed out of so i always say when i see that older diet trader joe's or you go to the gym and there's an older woman at the front desk she might not be there because that's where she wants to be

Gretchen:

right

Elizabeth:

you know so when you've got all of these people did not suddenly become incompetent once they hit 50. Something else is happening. So as I researched this, it helped me to understand systemically that there was something happening. And so you could then have a conversation with people who have landed here and help them see you're not, it's not because you're just a screw up. This is happening to a lot of your contemporaries.

Gretchen:

Because I mean, that happens to everyone. I think when they're out of work for a little while, you start to blame yourself. You start to feel really down on yourself. But I think, like you said, later career folks really struggle with what am I doing wrong? What what can I do differently? But once they understand this isn't about you, this is a systemic problem, then it's probably easier to tackle some of that or at least to to live with the within the situation, right? We'll continue this important conversation in just a moment. But first, we need to take a quick break to bring you an important message. This is your call to action. Every single day, 11,000 Americans turn 65. Our parents, our grandparents, our neighbors, ourselves. And right now, the programs that keep us healthy, independent, and thriving are under serious threat. The Administration for Community Living and Older Americans Act that provides services like meals, caregiver support, falls prevention, are on the chopping block. $1.5 trillion in spending cuts? That means real people could lose lifelines. But here's the truth. When we speak, they have to listen. And we cannot stay silent. Congress is moving fast. They could vote by Memorial Day. So we need you to stand up and take action today. Write your legislators. Use AgeGuide's advocacy toolkit on our website. Call your legislators. Flood Washington with our collective power. Share stories. Real voices change minds. This isn't just about budgets, it's about dignity. It's about making sure our loved ones don't go hungry, don't lose support, don't suffer because of cuts. We are the voices they can't ignore. So let me ask you, what kind of future do you want as you age? If you believe in compassion and justice in community, then act now. Follow the link in the show notes to find Age Guide's action alerts. Together, we are unstoppable. Now, let's go make a difference.

Elizabeth:

And we have to tackle our own internalized ageism. sometimes the worst ageism I encounter is somebody about my age. They're the ones pulling up the drawbridge when they see me coming. It's not always the young person. In fact, so I'm in the world where I have friends from 30, yeah, over 80. And it was a younger friend who told me about, there's a venture studio that you should apply for. And I was 68 at the time. I'm thinking, I don't know if the tech bros are gonna really get me. The tech bros, yeah. She said, no, no, no, apply. So they had four rounds of interviews. When I was told that I had made it from the second to the third, I thought, let me straighten out my tie here and be serious. And I was told that I got in. So out of five of us, I was almost twice the age of everybody else.

Gretchen:

Wow, awesome. And

Elizabeth:

I found, as I often find, that it's not always young people who are the ones who are ageist. We can be the worst. offenders. We can be the ones who exclude and don't promote and don't put on a panel, etc.

Gretchen:

Yeah, or cut ourselves short, right? Underestimate what we can do. That is true. And that affects us in significant ways, right? Isn't the research that if you have a low esteem for your older self that you live seven years less?

Elizabeth:

Yes, that is

Gretchen:

true. That's significant. So what about when you're in the workforce? How does ageism manifest in the workplace? What are some of the most harmful effects that you've seen it have on older employees?

Elizabeth:

I mean, I think the big one that I just described where you're pushed out. Okay, right. People either jump before you're pushed because you don't get the opportunities. You don't get visibility. You're not recognized. There's kind of all of that. And you are... as I said, jump before you're pushed. It's just, it becomes intolerable. Right. And I think, you know, there isn't, there's, there is a lot of the conversation. I don't know if businesses yet truly believe in the value of older workers. This is still a hill climbing. I mean, I really, you know, wish that those that are out front have integrated older workers are promoting them value I'd love to see because they're always going to be laggards okay we can't get us on the laggards

Gretchen:

right yes

Elizabeth:

that are the leaders

Gretchen:

I'd

Elizabeth:

love like AARP to host something where a group of them come in and tell us what worked and what didn't. And then I'd also like a survey, an anonymous survey where employers could talk candidly about what they're struggling with and really afraid of with older workers. Some of it, you'll hear all the usual stuff.

Gretchen:

Right, and some of it you could debunk, but maybe there would be some things where you would say, all right, this is something we need to talk to folks about because they can change that. They can skill up or whatever it might be.

Elizabeth:

And I think it's important to, when we talk about ageism, to also include younger people. I was interviewing someone recently, and I was doing a pre-interview with her, and she was talking about how older people will say to young people, it took me 10 years before I was at blah, blah, blah. You know, you're just trying to cut across the grass and get to the bottom of the mine. Do you think you can do it in four? And she looked at me and she said, they can. interesting and so that well it took me this long and i had to so we are also um stunting the advancement of younger people have views and stereotypes about them as well so the age of thing is not just at know our end of the spectrum they also encounter it and then it means that everybody is not able to contribute what they could everybody who could have an impact on a company's bottom line is getting stunted and held back in some way

Gretchen:

you're right that's really important and when you frame it that way that it's about all of us and everyone having an opportunity it opens more doors for later career folks, because they're talking about this in terms of everybody and everyone can relate to it. Instead of trying to go it alone and just fighting for the older adults over 60 or whatever. Yeah.

Elizabeth:

And we're gonna have to be, the day of the one time, one way exit into retirement is over. Oh, interesting. Tell me more about that. So many people now cannot afford it. There's the not afford part. And there's also I'm not I'm 71. I'm not my grandma. I'm not my grandmother.

Gretchen:

Yeah, you still have things you want to do. You still have ideas and plans. And yeah, so many

Elizabeth:

of us. you know, thanks to advances in science, medicine, public health, then we are living fitter, longer lives. And sort of kind of getting rid of this, I think we need even like just new language. Because there's still this view of old and frail.

Gretchen:

yes

Elizabeth:

old independent old and takers users right and um even you know sometimes i'll listen to one of our legislators they'll be older than i am okay and they're talking about like you people not even wanting to

Gretchen:

they don't want to associate themselves with that population so

Elizabeth:

you know there is I think now boomers in particular are becoming all elbows and knees. You know, we did this with women, we did this with civil rights, we did this with LGBTQ.

Gretchen:

We

Elizabeth:

are making our path by walking and we're not accepting all the stereotypes being heaped on us. It is all elbows and knees to, I think, change this perception that has been sort of frozen in time and it takes a while for that to sink in to business and as is often the case with stereotypes there's always a little bit of truth okay okay You know, there is, I love all the AI and I use ChatGPT and Gemini and Perplexity and all of it. And I have a friend, it would so help her. And she's just like, no, I'm not gonna use it. And I see her, you know, working things that I said, by the time you download that document, it will take you longer to download it than for chat to do what you need it to do. She's just no. So I think that view sometimes that we won't adopt new technology, but it's not everybody.

Gretchen:

It's not everybody, right. So people will take a small example like your friend and say, well, that's all olders. They're all doing that.

Unknown:

Yes.

Gretchen:

But it's not true. People like you are embracing it. You're using it all the time. That's true with a lot of things, like you said, with those negative stereotypes. So how do we turn that around and turn it into something more positive? I know a lot of people talk about the wisdom of older people and how much we can benefit from that. And there's research on the benefits of intergenerational. You can't have intergenerational if you're negating some parts of the population, right? And that's very valuable. What else can we do to kind of shift this perspective, do you think, Elizabeth?

Elizabeth:

Well, so I often think that there's a role for everybody in the sense that you have to look at in this, which is really revolutionary. This is a huge, I think the whole longevity aging arena is right up there with climate change as a grand challenge. So it is going to take where each of us with our talent, network, resources, wisdom, what is the role we're gonna play? And I think we have some guidebooks. So we now know, even in this climate, which this climate is a lot of things shifting, But we know, and until very recently, no one would put forward a slate of candidates that was all white men. They would, someone would call them out on the, it's kind of like I say to people, do you want an orchestra of all trombone players? No, you don't.

Gretchen:

No, you need some different perspective. You need to mix it up a little bit, yes.

Elizabeth:

So, you know, the... what we did with women when we started making sure that on any slate of candidates women were considered if someone if we were looking at keynote speakers if we were looking at panels if we were looking for who to advance it got to the point that if there was no woman on the slate we were considering someone was going to say something and i think in the same that same muscle when you start to see all the candidates are 40 and under

Gretchen:

right yes

Elizabeth:

there is the ability to speak up so it is a muscle i think that we're going to have to continue to develop because it's not there and as i said some of us are the worst offenders

Gretchen:

right

Elizabeth:

and there's also i when i was saying that i would love to see the companies that are doing well here Columbia used to even have some awards they would give to New York companies that had excelled on, you know, embracing older workers. And they had, you know, criteria that they looked at. Because I think the ones that are leaders can teach the rest of us. And those are the ones that have the policy where you can work part-time, they have mentoring programs, they're looking at the technology that if someone has a repetitive task, that that technology allows them to not wear out the muscle in their arm. Okay, right. Or the, you know, we've all heard of the CVS program that where they, the people are going to Florida for the winter and they needed some pharmacist. So they had more customers in Florida during those winter months. So they had a special program where you could be a pharmacist with CVS working there. So what are the other innovative programs that we could hear about? And I think we also need to hear about the failures. What did they try that didn't work? What didn't work? So that this becomes part of the conversation and people, the companies that are kind of more hanging back on this, hear from companies that have done really well with it.

Gretchen:

and hear about the benefits that they experienced. And they wouldn't need to reinvent all of these ideas. Like you said, they can learn from the challenges. Don't even bother trying that. That didn't work, but here's what did work. That would really be helpful, I think. And probably some policy changes as well. I mean, who knows what's going to happen with Social Security now? Like you said, everything is up in the air right now. We're all advocating really hard to protect Social Security, but it does need protecting. And it's time for all of us to speak up about that because we've all paid into that and we all deserve to have that waiting for us. Right. So I'm assuming there's other policy things, too, that you can think of that might help at a macro level.

Elizabeth:

And I want to say this also about Social Security. I've just written an essay, and it's about the impact of Social Security on millennials. Oh, very good. Because I think the, you know, for some people, Social Security is just a pesky little boomer problem, okay?

Gretchen:

Right, because I don't think the millennials thought that it was going to be around for them anyway, right? There's kind of this narrative out there. It's not going to be there for us anyway, so why should we care?

Elizabeth:

So here's the other reason to care. I asked ChatGPT.

Gretchen:

Your friend.

Elizabeth:

And

Gretchen:

mine.

Elizabeth:

Personal assistance. Yes. I said, if Social Security is cut in the next 30 to 90 days, as has been warned could happen, what happens a year from now? What happens? And they were all consistent. they all said, so suddenly, because you've got 50% of the people relying on social security for half or more of their retirement income. You pull that out, suddenly now as a millennial, your mom is going off the rails. So you were thinking of moving to New York for a job, but now you're going to stay in wherever you are where she is.

Gretchen:

And maybe you have to cut down your work hours to do some caregiving.

Elizabeth:

Cut down your work hours. You're now, you've got young kids and your parents that you're worried about. You've got, so it just sort of laid out all the cascading effect of having millions and millions of older adults who could hold it together with maybe a little help, suddenly having the rug pulled from underneath them. So whatever relationship one may have with their parents, they don't want to see them go over the financial cliff. So when you... think about Social Security, it's not just going to impact these older people. It's all the younger people who care about these older people having to now alter their lives in dramatic ways. Mom has to move in. You have to move in with her. You've got to, you know, and it just, it went on and on and on. So I picked out like 10 points and they were all consistent. No one had, it was grim. So I said the conversation we're not having, we say, oh yeah, millennials don't think it will be. We don't say if you cut it for this group over here, they all have kids.

Gretchen:

Yes, it impacts everybody

Elizabeth:

wrecking ball through the family. So because my interest in writing it is that this piece is that the point you made, we all need to be enrolled in the preservation of Social Security now.

Gretchen:

Yes. Yeah, so where is this article going to

Elizabeth:

appear? Where can we find it? I am sending it around now to, you know, the way you got to send it, then you got to wait. Okay. What as a writer you want to do is send it to everybody and like, see who

Gretchen:

right see who jumps but you have to do one at a time so they can have exclusive rights okay so you're waiting to see who's gonna pick it up and publish well please let us know and we'll add it to the show notes when we air this podcast because i'm sure folks would love to check that out as well as your book you have a copy of your book with you

Elizabeth:

this is the book 55 underemployed and faking normal

Gretchen:

such a great title i love it your guide to a better retirement life yes Thank you for sharing with us your thoughts on all of these things. Do you have any parting comments or thoughts you'd like to share?

Elizabeth:

One of the things, and I don't know kind of who to talk to about this, when I see all these federal workers being cut,

Gretchen:

I was

Elizabeth:

surprised to learn that some 42% of them are over 50. these a lot of them are older workers and i know these departments of employment services are working with them on unemployment on you know finding new jobs i'm wondering if they're working with them on the upset turmoil and trauma

Gretchen:

the emotional side of it

Elizabeth:

yes and i would like to work with an agency on developing some curriculum a workshop that complements what they're doing on that practical get another job this is what you do i work with them you know using my book and some other resources on the whirlwind of landing here that is so important to kind of how you even show up for a job interview. If that part is not there, I think the other parts aren't as effective as they could be. So whoever's out there who is over an agency or having to deal with many many more people applying for unemployment and you can even see it in who's coming in that there's some shell-shocked people i'd love you on some programming for them

Gretchen:

That's exciting. That is a great idea that you have. Elizabeth, you just keep coming up with new things. I can't wait to see what your next chapter on your journey is going to be like, because I think that's a great idea. And we're at this moment in history where things are so bleak and so dark that when we get a spark of an idea like that, it really... is important that we look to see how we can be that change agent. And I'm so glad you had that idea. But yeah, there are people out there doing good things, but we need to connect it to that emotional piece too. I think you have kind of a niche area there where you recognize that like you said, people are shell shocked. They have no idea how to navigate this new space that they find themselves in because it hasn't happened to them before. And they were getting close to, you know, their last chapter of their career and maybe had some things they still wanted to do. And it just really pulls the rug out of you when you're at that phase. So addressing that emotional side of it and getting your attitude in a place where you can go look for a job, like you said, that's so important and impactful. So I'm excited that you're You're ready to roll up your sleeves and create some curriculum. Thank you so much for joining us on this podcast and having this important conversation. And we'll have information in the show notes of how people can find you and find your book. Thank you so

Elizabeth:

much.

Val:

Hello and welcome to your Medicare Minutes. My name is Val Guzman and I'm the Benefit Access Specialist here at Age Guide. The State of Illinois Senior Health Insurance Assistance Program, also known as SHIP, provides free, unbiased Medicare counseling for Medicare beneficiaries and their loved ones. SHIP counselors are available locally to answer questions and to be a resource for you without any sales pitches. The Medicare website, Medicare.gov, is a good place to do your own research and learn more about the various types of Medicare plans. You can get connected with a SHIP counselor on our Medicare Assistance page at ageguide.org, or you can call us at 1-800-528-2000.

Gretchen:

Thank you for listening to The Age Guide, Perspectives on the Aging Journey. Age Guide coordinates and administers many services for older adults in Northeastern Illinois. Our specially trained professionals are available to answer questions and connect you with local service providers and resources. If you are interested in these services or want to learn more, go to our website at ageguide.org or call our offices at 630-293-5990. Please follow our podcast so you can be notified in your streaming account. Thank you and we will see you next time on The Age Guide. Guide podcast.