The Age Guide: Perspectives on the Aging Journey

Aging Unfiltered: Breaking Barriers – with Janine Vanderburg

• Age Guide • Season 4 • Episode 2

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Welcome to our second episode in our series entitled: "Aging Unfiltered". In this episode, we address the challenges of ageism in the workplace and its impact on job seekers of all ages. Age bias can affect hiring decisions, career advancement, and workplace culture in ways that are often damaging. Join us as we speak with Janine Vanderburg a passionate anti-ageism advocate and the CEO of Encore Roadmap, where she partners with businesses, media, and brands to foster age inclusion and tackle ageism head-on. We’ll uncover the stereotypes that influence hiring practices, share personal stories of overcoming these obstacles, and explore strategies for fostering more inclusive hiring practices. Tune in to learn how we can break down age-based barriers in the workforce and create opportunities for talent of all ages. 

Resources

Encore Roadmap 

Cookbook – Leo Robledo - Central American Feasts II_ A Culinary Adventure

Cookbook – Leo Robledo - Breakfast Around the World 

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Gretchen:

Welcome to the Age Guide podcast, Perspectives on the Aging Journey. In today's episode of our series, Aging Unfiltered, we'll dive into the issue of ageism against older adults in the hiring process and within companies. Ageism involves the stereotypes that shape how we view ourselves and others based on age. By engaging in discussions with a more inclusive world for all ages. Today, I'm so excited to welcome Janine Vanderberg, a passionate anti-ageism advocate and the CEO of Encore Roadmap, where she partners with businesses, media, and brands to foster age inclusion and tackle ageism head on. With over 35 years of experience in social sector consulting, Janine has led transformative change initiatives and co-founded Changing the Narrative, a major campaign to combat ageism. Recognized as one of Colorado's top 25 powerful women in business, her efforts have reached 30,000 people across 50 states and nearly 50 countries, inspiring more inclusive workplaces and media. Join us as we discuss how we can combat ageism, not only in our personal lives, but also in the workplace. Welcome, Janine.

Janine:

Gretchen, thank you so much for having me to talk about my favorite topic.

Gretchen:

I'm so excited to have you here. So Janine, you have such a rich background in advocating for age inclusion. To start, I'd love to hear a little bit more about what drew you to this work. Was there a particular experience or a realization that really lit that spark for your journey into anti-ageism advocacy? So Gretchen, that's

Janine:

such a good question. I've actually been thinking a lot about that lately. So I've been an activist all of my life. Things that I've championed, early childhood education, making sure that all children have access to great public education, a lot of things around women's economic security. But literally, it was right during the Great Recession, That I, because I was running my consulting firm and a lot of contacts in the nonprofit sector, and people would be referring me, people who were, you know, in their 50s who had done kind of, you know, amazing things, but all of a sudden were being pushed out, right, because of the Great Recession. And I started thinking, like, what a waste of talent. Like, here are all these people. And I actually won a contest that was put on by Encore.org, Cogenerate, to train a lot of people. older people, older people, they were in their 50s, who had sales and marketing backgrounds in nonprofit fundraising. Because what I knew from having worked with nonprofits, government foundations for decades was everybody loves doing the work. And everybody hated asking for money. And I thought, well, here's this group of people who are used to closing deals. So I think that was when I first started seeing how, as we got older, we were being kind of pushed out despite having all of the strengths and talents. And that, I think, has continued to drive me and certainly even more so since starting changing the narrative in 2018, where literally everybody Every single day, I hear stories of people who are absolutely amazing, who have so much to give to communities, workplaces, society, and are not being valued. So I think my fundamental belief in all of us should be able to live up to our strengths and potential gets really challenged by ageism. And so I had to take it on.

Gretchen:

That is an interesting start. And that's such a fantastic point that there's that potential out there that we as a society are just wasting if we can't embrace everyone at every age. ageism in the workplace can really undermine both individual and organizational potential, right? So based on your experiences, how do you see ageism impacting people in the workplace and where are some of the most common misperceptions about older workers that you think are particularly damaging to fostering that really inclusive workplace?

Janine:

Yeah. So, um, I wish I knew kind of why it occurred, but I just attribute it to societal ageism. But how I see it showing up is this, and it's literally at every stage. It certainly happens a lot in hiring, right? So we know I'm on the board of an organization called the Center for Workforce Inclusion Labs, and we're all about workforce inclusion. And so we did a study this summer. The survey results were just released last month, and almost 60% of older job applicants believe that they are being discriminated against in hiring. And actually, when you look at what hiring managers say, these older job seekers are fairly accurate. An organization called Resume Builder releases these studies about what hiring managers say and A large percentage of them say they automatically screen out people over age 60. Now, is that illegal? Yes, it is. But here we have, and these are just the hiring managers who admit it, right? That doesn't include hiring. So we know that it happens in hiring. And there are a lot of ways that that can make itself known. It can be things like even at the solicitation process where job postings go out. And they say things like early career professional. Well, you know, sort of by definition, when you're in your 60s, you're not an early career professional anymore. Or they say things like digital natives. Now, I consider myself pretty tech savvy. I do all the tech things. I use all the new apps, whatever comes out. I'm always an early adopter. But by definition, I can't be a digital native, right? Because when I was coming of age, we still had like phones hanging on the wall with the party line, right? Where we always do. So, but I consider us digital learners. But when companies put things out like digital natives or early career professionals, they're basically saying, we don't want you here, right? If someone nonetheless, a courageous person who says, I've got a lot to give that company, applies, then you may deal with those hiring managers who automatically screen people out of a certain age. Or now we know one of the issues that's really becoming relevant and prominent is the use of algorithms to automatically screen people out. It's a new area of advocacy that we need to work on. So that can happen. And then sometimes you may be invited in for an interview. And this happened to a friend of mine who, you know, because of childcare, raising her family, actually completed her college degree relatively late in life. And so she had a graduation date that made the interviewers think that she was younger than she was. And of course, when she showed up, they're like, oh, you're an old person. So it So we also know, and this is one of the things we worked really, really hard on in Colorado, We know that it is illegal for people to discriminate based on age. But one of the ways very often that companies sort of get around that is they've been doing things like they will ask you for your high school graduation date on a job application or on an online application system. And so, of course, if you put in your high school graduation date, they know how old you are. And I actually, when someone first told me about that, I said, well, that's ridiculous. Who wants know your high school graduation date after your first job at McDonald's, maybe. Like, how is that relevant? You don't need that. So one of the things we did in Colorado is we got a law passed, and we're one of five states that got a law passed that actually bans employers from asking for high school graduation dates, college graduation dates on initial job applications. So I think that's an important area of advocacy. So those are some of the ways that it takes place in hiring. And then we get to on the job. We know that Older people are being pushed out. And the Urban Institute did a study that followed like 20,000 people who entered their 50s with stable employment. And it showed over half were pushed out because of their age. And of course, the downside is only 10% ever recouped financially in any way. So it sets, you know, we know, for example, That funders and as communities, we say, oh, we're so concerned about the economic security of older adults in our community. Well, you know, if you push someone out of a job in their 50s, that's going to have a pretty negative impact on their economic security. And so it can be, you know, deliberately just being. laid off. Or it can be in a situation that is made so untenable by the kind of all of a sudden, you're not invited to meetings, people make hostile remarks, they, you know, step up to your desk, and they're like, Oh, so Gretchen, are you still here? Retired

Gretchen:

yet? Are you thinking about retiring? When are you going to retire? All those kind of questions start coming at you. So it starts

Janine:

making you feel, you know, really unwelcome. So there are no plays out. And When I'm talking to employers, I find that some of the misconceptions that they have are totally not based in reality. So I spend a lot of my time myth-busting, and that's why I call it playing the ageism dragon. Part of it is myth-busting. So for example, there's this myth that older people won't stay around much. We're going to retire. Well, actually, when you look at all of the data, On average, older workers have four times the tenure of younger workers. And this is not to disparage younger people. All of us, when we're younger, you know, we're looking for that next opportunity. We may be moved because of things like graduate school, relationships, you know, all the things. But the reality is younger people leave more often. So that's kind of a total myth that we can, you know, bust. People say things like, well, older people don't want to learn new things. And again, A or P style. some phenomenal research here. We know that's not true. We know that there is a reason why lifelong learning institutes, which are popping up across the United States, things like age-friendly universities, are so popular because we actually do want to learn new things. And brain

Gretchen:

research too, right? Brain research tells us that the brain continues to be able to learn new things as we grow older. And we have new ways of learning those things that we didn't have access to when we were younger.

Janine:

Well, And one of the things, and so I love telling stories when I do this, because sometimes, you know, when you just give data, people are like, yeah, yeah, yeah, 70s of older adults want to learn new things. So my new favorite story is this guy named Leo, who was an executive chef for Hilton for like over three decades. And then he, quote, retires, but he doesn't really retire. He decides he wants to learn AI. So he learns it on his own, YouTube and that kind of thing. And he has started generating cookbooks. He's got this ambitious goal to produce 18 cookbooks in 18 months of different, and he calls it like flavors around the world, right? So they're very themed, flavors of Italy, flavors of Portugal. Now, and this to me is an example of where experience with AI can be such a powerful formula. If I generate it, AI recipes, I'm not much of a cook. There would be horrible output, but the guy's been an executive chef for a prominent hotel chain. He can look and he can say, that works, that doesn't. And not only that, and reads images and the way he says, He can generate images because he knows what the food is supposed to look like. So, you know, sometimes when you generate those images in AI. So that to me is kind of a powerful example of, you know, here's he's learning new things. And on that, he's learning new things

Gretchen:

in a really helpful way.

Janine:

And

Gretchen:

he's capitalizing on experience that no person who was early career could possibly do because he's had years and years of experience.

Janine:

Exactly. Exactly. So to me, such a great example. And I think one of the things that all of us can do is look for those experiences. examples in our own community, and just elevate, tell those stories. And then, you know, there's also the mythology of, oh, we don't want to be managed by a younger boss. And again, CWI labs, when they did their survey showed over three quarters of us who are older are perfectly fine being managed by a younger boss. So they're just all these stereotypes and mythology. And I think one of the things that all of us need to do is say, well, have you thought about this? Why are How are you making that assumption? So when people say those things, I like to give them data. I like to give them story. But I also like to say, why do you think that? Tell me more. And really challenge people to think about, you know, why is it that they have these beliefs? And very often they're just out there. There's no validity behind them.

Gretchen:

but it's kind of seeped into our culture and everybody seems to just kind of jump on that bandwagon without even thinking it or they slip into it even somebody who is very pro-aging who works in the aging field even might have some of these preconceived notions about hiring and overlooking someone so I love that story about Leo because that's a perfect example and you know I was going to ask you exactly what you just answered like how can we And it sounds like it's really about speaking up when we hear these kinds of ageist statements. If somebody says something or comments, it's really good to push back a little bit and ask them why they think that and then to maybe challenge their assumptions. That's something that all of us can do. And it's really important right now because this is affecting not just the individual who is being discriminated against, but it's really affecting our whole economy if we're not respecting and valuing the input of older workers. We need them in our economy in order to be successful, right? Well, Gretchen, I'm

Janine:

so glad you brought that up because it always, it's one of the things that stuns me about all of this that I should even have to be out and speaking about it. Not that I love talking, so it's not an issue. But we've got what I call this really puzzling paradox. We have all of these unfilled jobs. And at the same time, employers aren't hiring older workers. And so, you know, an AARP research had estimated that that costs the U.S. economy like $850 billion a year in 2018. And it was only going up from that. So workplace age discrimination has real cost. And I also want to mention something that I think very often people don't think about is the impact that it also has on families. So I know, you know, back to that great recession time, and I was talking to this guy, I was out of my consulting firm, I was doing monthly meetups just to get people to connect with each other and network to hopefully be able to find jobs. And, you know, this one guy, Sam, he was like, this is really awful. I don't know how to tell my daughter that I'm not going to be able to pay her college tuition. Right. So it was like there was that kind of impact. One of the things that happened, I was teaching a sixth grade class on ageism. I was trying to figure out, you know, is it good to get people at a younger age? And it was and it was fascinating. And I remembered why I decided not to become a middle school teacher, how hard that work is. Right. But this little boy, Isaac, came up to me after and he said, Now I know why my grandma is so sad and she cries all the time. And I said, what, you know, what are you, what do you mean? And he said, she cries all the time. She lost her job two years ago and nobody will hire her. And she thinks she's not helping us. And I just, you know, I mean, my heart broke, my heart broke. You just realize, yes, it affects us economically. And we know from the research of Dr. Becca Levy in the Yale School of Public Health, it affects our mental health, our physical health, all of those things. And it affects the economy, as you pointed out, but it also affects our families, right? So that to me is why all of us have a vested stake in doing something about it and not just saying, oh, this is someone else's problem.

Gretchen:

Right. Yeah, such a good point. It's all of our problem. And so you've talked about some ways that, you know, we can start to speak to this issue and to address it as it's happening. Are there also some specific initiatives or policies that you've seen that have been implemented? particularly impactful in fostering age inclusivity. You talked about the law that passed in Colorado that bans graduation dates from being asked. Are there other things like that? You bet. Yeah.

Janine:

So I think that there are a number of things, and these are things that I think all of us have to champion, probably within our own communities and our own states, because it seems to be really hard to get through Congress. The So right now, there are two bills that are pending in Congress. And I do believe that all of us who are pro-aging advocates and who care about workplace age discrimination should be letting our own elected representatives know that we care about this issue. And we do consider it an older adult issue. So for example, there is a federal law, the Age Discrimination in Employment Act, and it prohibits discrimination against people age 40 and over. Here's the rub. As a result of a Supreme Court decision some years ago, the burden of proof to prove age discrimination is much higher than it is for other forms of discrimination. So you have to prove that age is the only reason and there weren't other factors. You don't have to do that for other forms of discrimination. The other problem now with that particular law is that two circuit court of appeals have ruled that it does not apply at the hiring level. So what that means is in certain parts of the country and not others, Hiring processes aren't covered at all. So that's why. But there are laws. The Protecting Older Job Applicants Act would address the hiring issue. The Protecting Older Workers Against Discrimination Act would shift that burden of proof back to make it more equivalent with other forms of discrimination. But I'm not really optimistic because this has been introduced on a bipartisan basis in Congress at least three times, and then it just gets stalled and committed. So, you know, it's incumbent. I think we should be championing those laws, but we also on a local level, on a state level, need to be arguing. This might need to happen at the state level. Age discrimination law. And that's why we did that in Colorado with the graduation date. Now, the other. So that's kind of one. And it's about actually dealing with workplace age discrimination. But there are other subtle forms of discrimination that we don't think about. So, for example, every state has workforce development dollars that come in. into local job centers, right? To train people, to do resumes, to help people learn new skills. Most of those, The Workforce Development Center staff, because primarily they've historically worked with women receiving public assistance, ex-offenders or whatever, are not used to this new crop of people age 50 and over who are showing up at their centers. And we don't, for the most part, we don't have specialized programs for them. So to me, another area of advocacy is to advocate both on a federal and state level and say, We need more emphasis. We need more program. We need for you to be retraining and upskilling because we do know, right? And back to your point about brain research, not only can we learn, but we also know we want to learn new things. Right? And we need to do that for the future of work, right? We know that the world is changing every day. There are all of these new things happening. We've got to be able to do things. But if the workforce development centers are only focused on training youth and people, you know, just out of school, we're missing. That's another, to me, area of advocacy. That's

Gretchen:

a good idea because there's a huge population of these older adults who still want to work. I mean, who really wants to retire at 50? Nobody's really ready for that. So if you're looking for a job- You would have to be

Janine:

Elon Musk. I know. I

Gretchen:

wish, but yeah, I mean, we want to keep working and we're talking about longevity too, right? People are living longer and we as a society have not adjusted to that reality yet. So if we're living longer, retirement needs to look different and retirement might start later, but it also might mean that we're interested in part-time work for longer, or we might want more flexibility so that, you know, we can take care of our grandkids and still work a little bit. So there's different ways that people over 60 are going to want to engage with the workforce too. So some of the discussion probably needs to be about flexibility and policies that take our longevity into account so that we can keep working, whether that's full-time or part-time or flexible, right? Right.

Janine:

And Gretchen, when you think about it, think of how useful Right. Right. Part time. Think about all the groups that that benefits that might benefit somebody who's been with your company but decides to go back to graduate school. Yes, leave totally, and you don't want to lose that person, but think of how they can benefit from part time schedule. I'm going to say this as a working mom. who left her work and started my own. The reason I started my own consulting company is I quickly figured out, I think within three months after my older daughter was born, well, work and, you know, being a mom, we're not going to, we're not going to work. I needed that flexibility. And so what did I do? I started my own company. And actually for the first 20 years, we hired mostly women who are moms and are, I think the password to our security code was 25 smart women, right? But We were all, you know, we could offer different flexible schedules. So flexibility works there. And then it also works as we're older. So to me, especially since every single industry is experiencing talent pipeline challenges, think of the benefit that you get of flexibility. It's not just about older people. Right. about an older population, people don't care. But when we say this works for all of us, and the good news is here, it's legit. We're not just saying this. It really is. It's legit. It works for all of us. And it's just, it's smarter ways for companies to operate.

Gretchen:

Yes, we could definitely change the world for a lot of people if we started to get these policies and practices in place. That pro-aging, I like the way you put that. Anytime you increase access, you're increasing access for everyone. It just makes it a lot easier. So I totally agree with that. It's kind of like universal design applied to the

Janine:

workplace, applied to the workplace policy.

Gretchen:

Yes. So lots of things that we can do to make a difference and lots of things. What's next for you? What's on your plate? What are you working on? Well, what I'm working on right now,

Janine:

I have had a book underway all year based on my adventures of changing the narrative and as well as my past three decades of experience in working in community and social change. And I'm calling it Slaying the Ageism Dragon. And I'm trying to finish the book. So that's like the big thing. exited, quote, speaking season, which is typically for me, September, October, is when I do a lot of that. I personally am going on vacation, but December is focused on finishing the book. So I want to release it in 2025. And then I really... It is the other piece. And so if any of you out there love to speak and engage with employers, I want to do a training of trainers in the first quarter of 2025. I've developed this workshop that I give to employers, organizations, HR groups on the business case for older workers and intergenerational teams and how to make it work. And the bunch of people all over the United States and beyond, but mostly my experiences in the United States because I understand U.S. laws and how U.S. policy works. I want a whole bunch of people speaking on it. So I want to train up at least 100 people. And once I do that, I will feel like I've done what is important to me of making the best attempt that I can to using my experience and insights that I've gained over time to make it.

Gretchen:

Absolutely. So that's really exciting. You'll have to let us know when your book comes out and maybe we can get you on the podcast to talk a little bit more about your book as well. We'd love to have you back again. That would be great. That would be great. I'd love to do that. Well, this has been a really engaging conversation. Do you have any parting words for us that you'd like to share? Just

Janine:

thank you so much for inviting me and for the work you do. And I think for anyone listening, if I had just some overall. overall advice in this whole space and this is true whether you're dealing with ageism that you yourself have as an older adult against yourself or out there in the world um you know my advice is like challenge assumptions that are there whether you're holding them or someone else is just the simple question why do i believe that or why do you believe that i think is really helpful and then this is um something else that i gained from my work in social change it's so easy to get weighed down by all the things that are going wrong, right? Because our lens, we start seeing that, we start seeing that. And I became really enthralled with the concept that was popularized by Chip and Dan Heath when they wrote the book Switch about looking for bright spots. So one of the things that I try to do a lot is look for the bright spots, who's doing it right. And so I'll conclude with a bright spot story. I was part of a group, a group of leaders in ageism. And this one woman basically talked about how she managed to retain an older employee who was ready to leave. She was just done. She was tired of working part-time. So back to your point about flexibility. And she said, would it work if I offered you kind of a per diem role? And the woman said, that would be lovely. I don't want to leave. So the organization didn't want to lose her institutional knowledge.

Unknown:

Mm-hmm.

Janine:

But she didn't want to work part time anymore. And this leader just saw we don't want to lose her. What can we do? And so to me, the bright I like to look at bright spots like this of, you know, there are things that people can do. And then what we want to do when we see that bright spot is just let more people know about it and spread the word. So kind of like you do through your podcast. So. Thank

Gretchen:

you for bringing that around full circle. I love it. Thank you so much for being here with us. Such good advice, challenging those assumptions, rethinking, reframing. That's also valuable and looking for the bright spots. Love it. That's what we need to do as we're trying to navigate this workplace, these workplace issues, right? Thank you so much, Janine. You are doing amazing work. I'm so excited to see what comes next out of all of you. all of your work and your book. So we will definitely be in touch. And I just loved having you on the show. Thank you so much. Sounds great. Thank you so much, Gretchen.

Val:

Hello and welcome to your Medicare Minutes. My name is Val Guzman and I'm the benefit access specialist here at Age Guide. Some people say the letters they get from Medicaid are very confusing. Some letters say that benefits will be lost if they don't recertify, or that their plan changed even though they didn't sign up for anything. Some people just don't know what to do. Actually, ever since the COVID-19 public health emergency declaration ended in 2023, Medicaid is once again requiring an annual recertification process to confirm eligibility for the program. If you were new to Medicaid during the COVID-19 pandemic, these recertifications were paused to protect your benefits, so you've never had to complete one before. Going forward, you'll have to fill out the recertification paperwork or call Medicaid to confirm your eligibility for another year. If you're found to not qualify for Medicaid anymore, Age Guide can help you learn about your health insurance options. As for other issues that you may have, it does happen that Medicaid automatically enrolls people into a health plan. Medicaid will notify you of this change and SHIP counselors can help you understand how these plans work or let you know if you can change your plan. Feel free to visit ageguide.org to get in touch with a SHIP counselor or call us at 1-800-528-2000.

Gretchen:

Thank you for listening to The Age Guide Perspectives on the Aging Journey. Age Guide coordinates and administers many services for older adults in Northeastern Illinois. Our specially trained professionals are available to answer questions and connect you with local service providers and resources. If you are interested in these services or want to learn more, go to our website at ageguide.org or call our offices at 630-293-5990. Please follow our podcast so you can be notified in your streaming account. Thank you, and we will see you next time on the Age Guide podcast.