A Female Officer's Story: Breaking the Glass Ceiling

Women’s History Month celebrates the contributions women have made in our history and the contributions they continue to make today.  This year’s theme is “Celebrating Women Who Tell Our Stories.” In this episode, we interview Cathy Howard, a trailblazer who held many significant roles in her life. She broke barriers and helped pave the way for other women; her journey was not easy, but her perseverance and dedication led her to overcome countless obstacles. Hear Cathy’s amazing story about being a female officer in the Navy in the Vietnam War, and her life after, working in various male-dominated fields. Her story is truly inspiring and will captivate you until the end. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Hello, and welcome to The Age Guide, perspectives on the aging journey. We are here to be your personal age guide and enhance your quality of life on the road ahead. Women's History Month celebrates the contributions women have made in our history and the contributions they continue to make today. This year's theme is Celebrating Women Who Tell Our Stories. In this episode, we interview Kathy Howard, a trailblazer who held many significant roles in her life. She broke barriers and helped pave the way for other women. Her journey was not easy, but her perseverance and dedication led her to overcome countless obstacles. Hear Kathy's amazing story about being a female officer in the Navy in the Vietnam War and her life after working in various male-dominated fields. Her story is truly inspiring and will captivate you until the end. Let's listen in.

SPEAKER_03: 1:05

Hello, everyone. This is Delaney with Kathy Howard here at Clarendel in Addison. And we kind of had a fun time. introduction story of um i met kathy at the lifetime hair salon back about a month ago and immediately she was a ray of sunshine and bridget our hairstylist said i knew that

SPEAKER_02: 1:30

it was fate for you two to meet and boy does she have a good story for everyone

SPEAKER_03: 1:35

Okay, well, Delaney, of course, I am Kathy Howard, in case you were wondering. And you must remember, there are no accidents. That is true. So we were meant to meet, which is great. But as I was sitting at the hair salon in Lifetime, Kathy's story just kind of

SPEAKER_02: 1:54

kept rolling and rolling. And there were just more, it was like a Mary Poppins bag of stories.

SPEAKER_03: 1:59

And so the first notable story that I remember was her story in the Navy. So that would be my first question is your time in the Navy and how you became to be. Okay. Well, that's a good opening softball. I can take that. Right. First of all, how did I get into the Navy? You just don't walk up to a ship and say hi. So I was graduating from Indiana University and the Navy recruiter was in town. So it was like, Interesting. I like to travel. I can speak German and some Italian. So people are like, OK, so why did you do it? I said, because it was the first circus that came through town. OK, it was a way out to go do stuff. Back then, a college degree was a checkoff. It really didn't mean anything. So I joined the Navy to see the world. just like that. And I had to get sworn in. What did you study in college before? Okay. Well, it was a real mix of things. Okay. Okay. So German, of course, economics, medieval history, all kinds of writing, reading. Even at the end, I took beginning philosophy because I had not quite enough credits to graduate. That in itself is a whole other story, but it was a washout class. And so I had a lot of fun watching people wash out. So I passed all their tests, and I showed up at Newport, Rhode Island, which is Officer Candidate School. So a whole bunch of us showed up, scared to death, wondering what's going to happen next. And we were put in our building, which is where we lived. And there were two people to a room. And while you were at class, somebody would swoop through and make an unannounced visit to your room. And boy, oh boy, it had to be ship shape or you were in trouble. Even, Delaney will love this, having pantyhose so you could wipe down the, quote unquote, right work after you took a shower. Wow. That's how tough it was. So yeah, we had to go marching in formation and all the guys there would just razz us to pieces and we'd just keep on marching. I couldn't wear my contacts anymore because I couldn't get enough sleep from standing the watch. So that kind of changed. But that was okay. It worked out and we spent a lot of time learning everything you could in order to be an officer. And then came the fateful days of vaccinations. Okay. So you line up and this guy with a gun, Corman, shoots you in the arm as you walk by. Very nice. Okay. So you could get shot up for plague, for example, or anything else. I was so special that I caught everything they shot me for. Oh, no. Oh, yes. It was a case of cowpox. Wow. You haven't lived. The cowpox, okay. Okay, so what happens is all your lymph nodes blow up and you can't get your clothes on. Oh, my goodness. So if you're sick, you are on the binnacle list. Everything's got a name. So I eventually got out of that. and rejoined my group. And it was interesting because there is a photo of all of us as we came in on our civvies. And then as we graduated, the same photo in our uniforms. And it's like one big navy blue mask with gold buttons running down the center. But there we were. So we were sent to our different duty stations. And I pulled NAS Oceana, Naval Air Station Oceana, Virginia. It's in Virginia Beach.

UNKNOWN: 5:59

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03: 6:00

And this was a real wake up call. I walked into the office with my bar and star. I was a line officer. These guys thought that waves, which is what we were called, were all nurses. No, see the star and the bar. I am a line officer. Well, that wasn't going to fly. So they put me in charge of all the classified materials and just general housework. And individually, the guys in my office were really nice. But get them together, and it was a dog pile. And I didn't have a chance to... All men. Yeah. All men in authority. Men would say cute things like, well, you know, there's two positions in the Navy for you, one of which is making coffee. It's like, okay, that's a hidden threat. Yeah. Or you don't have to salute her. She's not a real officer. It's like, eh. The credentials are right there on your wrist. Mm-hmm. But that didn't matter because I was a woman.

UNKNOWN: 7:04

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03: 7:05

So we had five squadrons, some of whom were the intruder bombers that I gave you the pin, the A6 intruder bombers, had a nose on it. It could refuel midair because it flew off the aircraft carriers and bombed Hanoi. So those are my guys, bombers, all of them. They were in such high regard that they could have eaten babies and everybody would have applauded. That's how tough it was. And this was Vietnam. And we all had bracelets for guys that never made it back. So it was real. And I know at the age of 22, I had to stand in the back of the church for the memorial service for a man who never made it back. And he was the skipper of the squadron. His jet malfunctioned and he crashed in the ocean. Gone. So everybody's crying. So I'm in the back. So I call up Ventress Field and tell them to send over the missing man formation. You have not lived until your heart is in your throat watching that jet peel off. What an experience. 22 years old, seeing death right in the face. So things continued, and I really didn't like the squadron after all because, you'll love this, I trained to fly with them. Really? Yeah, that's how hard-ass I was about that. Do you always have a passion wanting to fly? I just wanted to do it because... Just get out there. Ah, just do it. Never done it. Wanted to see how it worked. So I went through school. First thing off, you have to jump off a tower that's two stories high into a pool. Wow. The mistake there was owning a two-piece bathing suit. Yep, that's not a good substitute to have during that kind of test. That was a quick change. Water malfunctioning. And other fun things like being dragged across the pool as if you were in a parachute. Well, my fingers got stuck so I had to do it again. Or floating for an hour with your helmet under your knees and being harassed because you had extra flotation, blah, blah,

SPEAKER_02: 9:14

blah.

SPEAKER_03: 9:15

But the real killer was the Dilbert Dunker. He sat in a mock cockpit, blew the whistle, and they went down the tracks, into the pool, and turned over. And you had to get out. Oh, so that's the fight or flight right there. Well, that's called having a narrow nose, and the breathing apparatus was made for a man's nose. The minute I hit the water, my mask flooded. So I did tap my helmet. The divers pulled me out, pumped the water out, and they're like, you're going to have to do it again. So I'm like, okay. First of all, I'm now going to be a propeller. Uh-huh. because I'm not going to crash like jets. So they put me in again and I got to the end and I held my breath and I went in and I swam out and I made it just by changing that. Did you pass the test? Yes, I did. And then came the awful moment when every squadron told me that in order to fly with them, I would have to perform certain sexual acts. To which I said, no, thank you. No, thank you. No, thank you. Wasn't worth it. But when you go to ejection seat school, that's a riot. a pressure chamber where everyone talks like Mickey Mouse. It was wild. So at one point, I ended up going over to run all of the base ratings and rankings. They do this test. It's locked in a safe, and that's how people get ahead. So I was in charge of administering that. So that was fun to see that happen. And I think one of my last assignments was to teach GED. What a riot. In the Navy? In the Navy. These guys come in and they're like, they came in. I'm like, do you want to be a runway sweeper or get on with it? They're like, look at our pens. The lady takes off her bathing suit. I'm like, absolutely. So... Was that the hardest task in the Navy? No, but you know, I started to invent things. Like I said to them, every week you owe me a paragraph. I don't care what it's about. You owe me one. And that's how we're going to learn to get through this together. And so a lot of them did. Yep, start writing, start reading, and get that going. So that turned out okay. But after a while, I'm like, you know, this is just not hacking it. So... I went and got an honorable discharge and went to graduate school and the GI Bill and just took off from there. Where did you go to graduate school? I went to graduate school at Old Dominion University in Norfolk. Okay. Yeah. So that was interesting. You had to pass what we called sadistics in order to get your degree. Well, I have no idea. about socks and marbles. So I went to the instructor who didn't know how to teach, and I said to him, if you can teach me, I will teach the class. And that's how I passed. So then I had to do my paper, and I did it perfectly. Gave it to the person who was supposed to be mentoring me, once again, an old white guy who had ideas about women and their place. And I typed it all up, and he goes, oh, I don't like this. I took it home. retyped it, took it to him. He goes, this is what I had in mind. I'm like, oh, jeez. Yeah, after the second effort. So this was Norfolk, Virginia. This is in the 70s, okay? So people like me would be called uppity and needed to be put in their place, except I kept moving around so they couldn't find my place. So I got that degree, and then I also went and did behavioral health, which is a nice combination. I wanted to make myself different, than every other retired naval officer who would work for pennies to get a second pension. And I had to support myself. So that's what I did. And I worked on a woman's newspaper at the time. You became a superstar in very many arenas in your life. I had to. You've got to keep changing. You can't fight the storm. Delaney, you've got to learn to surf the waves. Fighting the storm gets you down. Surf. So... I did a lot of that. But anyway, in the women's newspaper, a woman was there whose husband was an orthopedic surgeon at Chesapeake General Hospital. So she said, oh, go down there. And I did. And they gave me a job, community relations and volunteers. My office was an old closet with a tiny typewriter. But I was out and about so much that it really didn't matter. And we did such fun things with the candy stripers. It was a riot scene. I did tours for kids, and there's a photo that I gave you of me with kids. Yeah, Kathy brought in all these fun pictures. Let's see, the one with you and the children specifically at the hospital. Right. So part of community relations was opening the hospital to all kinds of people. And especially children, you want them early on. For example, you go down the hall and you go, now if you take your tonsils out, it smells like bubble gum, so you'll be okay. You know, reassuring. It won't, but they thought so. So the picture that you have is a picture of me with a bunch of school children, and we're looking at an x-ray box with all kinds of bone x-rays. So the lesson there is... How do you protect your bones? The best way, how do you protect your bones? And I get all these answers, this, this, and this. And I said, no, the answer is you wear your seatbelt. So that was like a life lesson maybe these kids would have learned. But that was just one of the many things I did in the community. I did not bring you the picture of me dressed up as a witch.

UNKNOWN: 15:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 15:23

Excepting Halloween candy that could be x-rayed for all kinds of vile ingredients. Yes. Yes. So we did that. And I just kept creating things as it came along. It was so much fun. I had billboards up that said, we care. And it was just a nurse and a patient smiling at each other. And I had billboards. I was doing radio. All of this stuff is in the 70s. This is before it really hit. America. So you could have fun. I didn't bring you the picture, but at one time I was hanging out of a helicopter taking a photo for the annual report. You were hanging out of the helicopter for an annual report picture. Yes. Also, there's a picture of me dressed up in surgical garb. Pictures. Now, it looks like from the picture you don't see that the surgeon is hard at work and concentrating. If you pulled back, you would see he was doing a hemorrhoidectomy. But that's not the part we shot. We shot him looking very intent. So that was a good laugh. Oh, my goodness.

SPEAKER_00: 16:31

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SPEAKER_03: 17:31

I mean, these pictures are detailed as it is. So thank you for not maybe bringing in that one. The other ones that you brought in are great. Yeah, it was just it was really interesting. After a while, I was director of marketing, had a new office and the new wing. And about that time, my marriage blew up. So I got through a friend, headhunted to Dallas, Texas, to a hospital corporation. Now we're talking the big time. Okay. So now I'm in Dallas and I have five hospitals that I'm responsible for. And my job is to fill beds. That's it. Fill them. Fill the hospital beds. Fill the hospital beds. So here's how it works. If you had a Walmart in your town, you would have me. Because I would let Humana and everybody else fight it out. I would have the smaller country type hospital open. for electives because we know you'll need us eventually a baby even plastic surgery podiatry anything that is elective we could do it and if you had your baby in san diego you got a 500 credit off your hospital bill why san diego Well, it was a market that had a lot of young people. The billboards were also in Spanish. So we were trying to attract as many people from as many demographics as possible. I mean, it's not like Fort Smith, Arkansas, where you do plastic surgery. The beauty with that is that you come home after a week and everybody says, oh, you look so well rested. And you're like, ha ha, if you only knew it was a vacation. So just, you know, and I would name them like the podiatry one was called Step Lively. So we would like market and brand all of these things across the system. By the time we were finished, I had all 22 hospitals, Coral Gables, Florida, to Marin County, California. I lived at the airport. I lived at Dallas-Fort Worth Airport, where I swore I would get my mail. And that's what I did, to just come up, be creative, fill hospital beds. I did a great job of it. Eventually, they went under, as a lot of places do. So then I took a job selling life insurance to people so that their children could go to college, which was a wonderful tie-in between sales, teaching, and having community college experience in finance. So I won all of the awards there too before they went out of business. The market down in Dallas was so hot at that time. Startups, crashes, startups, crashes. You just had to get on one long enough before it blew up.

UNKNOWN: 20:19

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03: 20:19

So you played a lot of different roles in your life. I have, but the one that you really love is everywhere I went, I was the first woman to do this, the only woman to do that. You created your own path. I did. So the joke is that I played for the women's javelin team because I was always taking one for the team. Yeah, that's it. And it's like... One of those, hell no, we won't go. It's like, I'm sorry, but this is it, sports fans. And we'd do that. And as we talked about this before, become the job you want to have. I never had an interview this whole time. I was passed along word of mouth. Like the president of the community college saw me giving tours to people on campus and making people write up paragraph a week in my orientation class, he took me to the office. I was the only woman up there, and my job was communications for five campuses. Five campuses. That's a lot of people. Yeah, that's the second. A lot of bases to cover. It's the second largest one in Virginia. And it was everything from soup to nuts. However, and you will love this part, I was uppity, so one day a man comes in and throws his coat on my secretary's desk and looks at me and says, hang it up. I looked at him and said, I'll tell my secretary when she gets back. You don't take it. Or how about a meeting where this guy, unnamed, comes up behind you and grabs your ass. And you can't say anything or it's triple. So I went up behind him the next time I grabbed his ass. And he turned around like thunder on the mountain. I said, now you know. Stop it. Yeah. That's what I mean about taking it for the team. You have to stand up, be present, and don't take it. And after a while, they either blow up or die. And then you move along to something else. You take those credentials and

SPEAKER_02: 22:31

create. Trailblaze at another arena.

SPEAKER_03: 22:33

Yeah, it's like, hey, we've done hospitals. We've done community colleges. What can we do next? From what I understand from when we talked at the Lifetime Spa, you are also kind of like a welcoming committee here at Clarendel. You make sure that everyone feels welcome. You go up if someone looks lost, you're the one helping direct them. So you've kind of brought your past into here and you're making sure that everyone feels welcome in every part of your life. Oh, how sweet of that. Yes. You know, you get a lot more when you look people in the eyes and you give a little body language with your hands of welcome, you're safe, you're okay. I became a one woman person Because I only learned about how to live here from a maintenance man and the concierge when they had fewer people. Now as the place is filling up, there's a lot of pressure on lots of people. So being an oldest child, a former camp counselor, an officer in the Navy, and I realize people who need help. So I would say, hi, how long have you lived here? You look new. And they're like, oh, I've been here two weeks. I'm like, oh, wow, I'm glad to meet you. I'm Kathy Howard. And if you see me around, if you have any questions at all, I'll be glad to help you. I'll visit you in your unit and show you how everything works. I'll show you the fire escapes and how you are safe because there's a landing there with a push button. And people are stunned because they've never been shown. So I get a lot of... It takes people like you to find the ins and outs of this place. I mean, you said there's memory care, there's assisted living, there's independent living. That's where I live. Independent living. Is there anything else besides those three? No, those three take up all the buildings and all of that stuff. But I've got to tell you a funny story. My husband and I were exercising over Addison at the gym. So for a long time, we saw this place being built. And there's metal fencing across the patios. And I turned to him and I said, honey, this looks like a place for juvenile delinquents. And then I moved in there and saw it was my apartment. And yes, there were lots of juvenile delinquents. Those fences do not help the case. No, they don't. But, you know, they do keep people from wandering in as much as wandering out because it is open to the public, to all the playing fields and just general people walking around. So, yeah, they serve two purposes with that. And we all have fobs. I've got mine in my pocket. The fobs open your unit's door and... You really need to have one on you. Otherwise, you have to go to the desk, borrow theirs, get yours, come back. So usually we wear them on our wrists, that sort of thing. So, yeah, you're kind of the community leader from what I've gathered. A friendly face that people can go to. I know one time this lady goes, are you the cruise director? I'm like, well, no. If you want to put it that way, maybe. I don't get paid for this. What do you mean?

UNKNOWN: 25:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 25:56

I do it. I will catch people from admin giving tours. And I'll just butt in and say, hey, I'd just like to hear from somebody who lives here. And they're just thrilled because, you know, the salespeople are going to sell them. When somebody like me walks up and says, sure, I can show you around. I'll show you how everything works. So, you know, why is there air under your door? Because it's positive air pressure. Why do the fans work constantly to pull air through and out? And they're like, oh. Have you had a funeral for your house yet? Because your house seems to be in this apartment. People hang on to things that make them feel good from the past. And that's why you'll see some apartments that, well, one lady passed away and her sons took a week of hauling stuff out. It's just like that. So, you know, we all get along. That's good. There's a lot of different activities I've seen throughout this place. Movie theater is a nice touch. It is. In fact, tonight we'll probably be seeing a movie, and everybody's invited, independent, assisted, of course not memory, and people go. And then they crank it real loud for the hearing aids. I did that last year, and I loved it. I was working for the committee that would– Honor our employees. We're not allowed to give tips, but once a year we take a collection. And then based on seniority, we hand out cash at a luncheon. So I was running it. No big deal there. I stood up. I said, hi. Hi. Everybody tune up those hearing aids. Yeah. Make sure you're listening. Yeah. And you have to remember you can't be literal because I said it and then I thought, oh, no. So I said, hi, I'm Kathy Howard. I'm the lady you make the checkout to. I'll be going to Fiji next week. And then I remembered, oh my gosh, people will actually believe that. I have to be careful. Yeah. Don't post on social media. No, no, no. Bright blue waters. No, I never get on social media. That's insanity. But we raised a lot, a lot of money and it made a lot of people happy. And it was very rewarding to do that. To do good, get good. Yeah. Just do all that. of that. I like to do good when there's a return. It doesn't have to be money. It can just be, thank you. Or sometimes people will say, I needed to hear that. And then that feels good too.

SPEAKER_00: 28:34

Today, there are nearly 1 million households in which someone aged 60 or older is caring for an adult with an intellectual or developmental disability. And the vast majority of those caregivers, 75% are women. On our last episode, we interview Nancy Hamilton, who is caring for her adult son who has a developmental disability. She shared about her life with her son, Andy, and a service dog, Hyatt.

SPEAKER_02: 29:03

So now the dog can kind of give you a heads up. You can get Andy to sit down or take a break if he's doing an activity. He's very good

SPEAKER_01: 29:11

at coming to get somebody if Andy seizes. But this was a very definite, he anticipated, he knew something was wrong before anybody else did. But so Hyatt was trained in prison. To me, it's a great program because they help so many beings. A lot of the dogs are rescue dogs. They're helping the prisoners, they're helping the college students.

SPEAKER_02: 29:31

Yeah, it's really a lot of pieces of the community coming together to make this work. That's very cool. I mean, there's so

SPEAKER_01: 29:38

many people who have the ability now to go places that they couldn't. One of the families we got to know, I mean, person is in a wheelchair and the dog can open doors, open refrigerators, go get water, go get meds for you. I mean, that to me is amazing.

SPEAKER_00: 29:54

Hear about her journey as a caregiver through the many challenges, emotions and the rewards that go with it. Nancy puts a face on caregiving and gives her unique perspective in the intersection of disability, caregiving, and aging.

SPEAKER_03: 30:11

By the way, can you mention a little bit about your little greeting cards that you like to hand out? Oh, the little motivational cards? I have it on my desk at home. Aww. See? Before I did the cards, I did the little yellow finger puppets. Really? Yes. After you leave, I'll go find you some. And you tune in. People show up with them on their desks all over the place because it's a little plastic guy with his little arms out and he's smiling. And he fits on your finger. It's just a little serotonin, a little bit of happiness. And not only that. You can use that to tell your kids to go to bed. Yeah. Because you just give it a funny, weird voice. And they're like, I better listen. I better listen. Because it's a real rice cracker. So that's fun, too. Yeah, and then these little motivational cards, one of them has to do with loving kindness, which we all need. And the other one is the I Am card. And on the back of each one, it says, as much as possible. It's like, let's shoot for it, but you don't have to make it. Just the effort. So I just thought, hmm, and started printing them up and just giving them out to people. There's a piece of... There's some love. A little bit of happiness sprinkled along the way. Right. Look at this every day and think, oh, yeah. Well, I'm sure it makes so many people's days that you don't even know what kind of day that they're having. But that little card... That's right. Probably leaves a big monumental feeling of happiness. Yes. It goes along with... Not kidding on people's cases because you never know what they're going through. You are just a bit player in their drama. And once you get that down, then you quit being insistent on people because you're just this little bit in their lives. But if it's a little bit of sunshine or if a light goes on over your head like, then you've done it. And that's all you need to do. So that's what I do. I've gathered that you've been a trailblazer in many arenas in your life and spread happiness wherever you could possibly go. Well, sure. What's the alternative? Do good, get good. Right. Yes. Oh, and here's an aside. I'm also... a lay minister with the Episcopal Church Diocese in Chicago. So my friends and I would go visit the sick after church and bring them gospels, psalms, whatever, talk to them, pet them on the hand, witness them that they are people and not just some old person. A statistic. A statistic, which goes into my next topic, which is I'm getting a crowbar and I'm taking the word senior off of the sign out there. Because senior is what you wanted to be in high school. Graduating high school, moving on to college. Now we have experienced people. The stories, the life stories when you talk to people and they begin to open up and tell you and you're like, wow, what a life you've had. This is fantastic. And they just kind of pull back. But if you celebrate it with them, it's even better. Yeah, senior does not give a positive connotation, except when you're in high school, obviously. So maybe I'll be with you with the crowbar. Yeah, we'll all be out there. Spray paint experience. Experienced. You know, it's like, I don't know. Oh, you're a senior immediately. You're invisible. And you're just dropped off and nobody cares. Guess what? We are the elders of the tribe. We can tell you. a whole history. We can tell you before you step off that cliff that there's a cliff there. Otherwise, we can't help you. And none of the communication takes place between the generations. So we try to encourage people to be... Intergenerational talks are not frequent enough. No. We're doing good with grade school kids, by the way. We kind of need that middle ground, though. A little more developed braids. Yeah, a little bit more. And plus, you can be more grandparenting-ish to people. But you have to be open to meeting new people. And that's where it's hard. And that's where I extend myself. And I always say, you are safe. So my three words, you are safe. This is how this and that works. You are safe. This is that red sign that says exit. You are safe. Do not touch the red box on the wall or this building blows up. Go to the landing, push the button. You are safe. So that's kind of my message. Because if you're saying somebody's safe, it's showing, you know, you care about them. And you want them to feel welcome, to feel it's okay to live here. It's like, come out of your room and let's go do some fun stuff. Oh, yeah. Bingo. Bingo can be fun. Oh, my gosh. They play bingo for blood here. I'm sure. It is just like they eat dinner early. Everybody gets up there. Everyone has to sit in the same seat from last week. Oh, my gosh. If somebody wins, it's like, wait a minute, I wanted to win. I went once, lost all my quarters, and realized I was going to get killed. Bingo's a pretty serious thing in these places. Oh, they are. That's why book club is always such a nice thing to do well I'm so glad that I was able to meet you that one random time and I'd never go get my haircut either and it was fate it was fate I just happened to need a haircut before a vacation yes from what I've understood from all of your past you've been a trailblazer in all arenas so I have pretty good confidence that you'll be a female trailblazer this next arena life that's great thank you and your cheerleader outfit looks fantastic Well, I think that is all the questions that I have for Miss Kathy Howard. Thank you so much for coming on our podcast. Oh, you're welcome. This has been a riot.

SPEAKER_00: 36:37

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